INBOUND CAMPAIGN DETAILS
1.) SAN. INBOUND CAMPAIGN DETAILS
High Rise Constructions - Inbound Calls
High Rise Constructions - Inbound Calls
CONTRACTS [OPEN] Handling Incoming Voice Calls
INDUSTRY High Rise Structural Constructions
AVERAGE CALL HANDLE TIME 720 seconds
TIME ZONE 1000HRS - 2000HRS (GMT+2)
AVERAGE CALL HANDLE TIME 100 calls 1000HRS - 1100HRS
(GMT+2)133 calls 1100HRS - 1200HRS
(GMT+2)126 calls 1200HRS - 1300HRS
(GMT+2)96 calls 1300HRS - 1400HRS
(GMT+2)92 calls 1400HRS - 1500HRS
(GMT+2)135 calls 1500HRS - 1600HRS
(GMT+2)100 calls 1600HRS - 1700HRS
(GMT+2)100 calls 1700HRS - 1800HRS
(GMT+2)109 calls 1800HRS - 1900HRS
(GMT+2)89 calls 1900HRS - 2000HRS
(GMT+2)CUSTOMERS - New clients of client
- Existing clients of client
- New employees of client
- Existing employee of client
SEATS [OPEN] 20 (For start-up)
DAILY BILLABLE HOURS 10 hours
PAYOUT $1960/seat/month (01 day - 30 day of the month)
WORK SCHEDULE 06 days/week
PAYMENT SCHEDULE Ever y 7th day
ELIGIBILITY To English speaking zones
DOCUMENTS REQUIRED - Company registration
- Technical chart
- Payment proof from existing client
- Bank account to receive payment from UK
PERIOD OF CONTRACT 11 months x 3 times extension
(33 months)TRAINING PATTERN Voice/video conference training
TRAINING PERIOD COMPENSATION Yes
(paid training)CLIENT VISIT TO CENTER Yes
(before going live)
VOIP RATES Client pays for it
CENTER MINIMUM CAPACITY 25 seats or more
DURATION FOR SIGNUP 5 days after the commission payment is paid
PAYMENT BANK Paid through Maxintel
MINIMUM SEATS FOR SIGNUP 20 seats
DATABASE Not required
(calls received by existing/ new customers)
REFERENCE Yes, client will introduce you to other centers during weekly performance reviews
NDA Will be provided after submitting the 'consent signup form'
SLA Will be provided by clients based on our recommendation
SIGNUP SECURITY Signup at our office, our office is operational at the same address since 04 February, 2004 SIGNUP TYPE Signing of contract at Luxembourg (or) through online application.
CONSULTATION CHARGES: U.S. $12,000 and one time enrollment and processing fee of $1,000.
2.) SAN. INBOUND CAMPAIGN DETAILS
Ocean Liner/Sea Cruise-Call Logging Project
Contract Synopsis
This work order is posted vide letter No.671/20IIL03, with the following objectives.
To provide back end support for all our divisions mentioned under the ‘Delegations’.
CONTRACT STATUS: Active WORK ORDER: Inbound Customer Care
PERIOD OF CONTRACT: 36 Months DELEGATION: Ocean Liners, Sea-Cargo
Requirements: Calling Zone (Calling Zone Required Agents - USA, UK, Caribbean & Central America & Europe English 130)
Additional Information: Center needs to possess a capacity of 22seats which is compulsory during for initial sign-up. Center planning & execution of project should synchronize with procurement and transitioning. English is mandatory, with regional accent depending on the calling zones. IIL, will provide training relevant to commencing of business to the contracted company. This work order initially requires 08hours support. Calls will be routed from call termination point situated in Spain.
Signup Schedule: CONTRACT DOCUMENT VALIDATION - 72Hours, ACCOUNT CREATION & PORTAL ACCESS - 72Hours, SECURITY DEPOSIT – 72 Hours, COMPLETION OF SERVICE CONTRACT SIGNUP- 72Hours, TRAINING 2 Hours x 5 Days, COMMENCEMENT OF WORK - 72Hours
Financials; RATE PER HOUR: $17.8, CURRENCY EXCHANGE VALUE: http://www.xe.com, HOURS APPLICABLE PER 01 FTE: 08Hours, WORKING DAYS: 07Days x Period of contract, PAY FREQUENCY: Paid weekly(a week consisting of 7 full days), PAY CHANNEL: E Pay: Business Communication Channels, Live Chat: 1000HRS–1800HRS(local time), Phone: 1000HRS–1800HRS(local time), e Mail: 24 Hours(36–72 Hours of response time), Ticket System: 24Hours(36–72Hours of response time), Signup Process
1. FIRST SENT PROFILE & Slot confirmation 1000 USD
2. APPROVAL OF PROFILE FROM CLIENT
3. MOU CONTRACT SENT TO CENTER
4. CENTER SENT BACK MOU CONTRACT WITH ITS DETAILS OF THE CENTER
5. CENTER GETS SIGNED COPY OF CONTRACT WITH THE CLIENT
6. SLA - SLA SIGNED BY BOTH PARTIES
7. SCREENING OF AGENTS BY END CLIENT OR VENDOR
8. SCREENING REPORTS HARED WITH CENTER
9. TRAINING SCHEDULED
10. TRAINING STARTED
11. CENTER GOES LIVE
CONSULTATION CHARGES: U.S. $15,000 and one time enrollment and processing fee of $1,000.
1.) AI INBOUND – 50 SEAT – 2 SHIFT CAMPAIGN
We would like to present before you a great opportunity to work on Captive International Project. It’s an INBOUND Customer Support to customers worldwide who calls or contacts your call center for information and details of offers and rates.
INBOUND PROCESS OVERVIEW BELOW:
KEY POINTS:
• Startup Capacity : Seats 50 seats Voice 20 Seats Non Voice.
• Expandable : After 24 Months or as per performance.
• Payment Cycle : Wired after every 15 Days.
• Advance : 50% of Billing Paid in advance in 3-5 working days after Live.
• Payment Holdback : Nil.
• Payment Mode : Wire Transfer Only.
• Payment Terms : On Login Hour Basis on Portal.
• Payout : 14 USD /Seat/Agent/Hour (Voice) & 12 USD Seat/Agent/hour (Chat
Support and email support )
• Center Payment : Center will be paid Only for Operational Hours Details in agreement
• Agent Per shift : 70 Login (18 Hours Operational)
• Other Team Member: 3 TL, 2 QA
• Wire Charges : To be deducted from billing.
• Type of campaign : Inbound Only.
• Sales Target : Nil.
• Operational Hours : 10 AM to 7.00 PM (PST), 6 Days a week.
• No Dialing Cost or Minutes Cost for Center.
CONSULTATION CHARGES: U.S. $15,000 and one time enrollment and processing fee of $1,000.
REQUIREMENTS:
• Dialer needs to support Inbound Calls facility. (Predictive Hard Dialer Mandatory)
• Center Registered under DOT and STPI, ISO registration will be preferred.
• Male Female Ratio has to be has to be good minimum 8:2
• Prior Call center experienced (Outbound/Inbound) agents to dial only.
• All call needs to be recorded and stored in Dialer or ftp for minimum 6 Months.
• Agent Login Reports and Portal Reports to be generated on a daily basis.
• Live Date between.
STEPS TO GO LIVE:
1. Company Profile Selection.
2. NDA & SLA Sign UP.
3. Agents Online Screening.
4. Online Training.
5. Technical Set Up Testing.
6. Final Mock & Test Calling
7. GO LIVE
Commercials:
Discuss with the affiliate
a. Startup Capacity: 1st month it would be one shift for 9 hours, you get paid on total 9 hours, from the second month it would be 50 seats for voice in two shifts and 20 seats non voice in 2 shifts.
b. Payment Terms: U will have a complete login for 9 hours and 18 hours respectively, yes it's on log in hours.
c. Centre Payment: Center will be paid Only for Operational Hours (Details in Agreement). .
d. Agents per Shift: Yes 1st month 50 one shift, 2nd month 70 in each shift
e. Operational Hours: 10 AM to 7.00 PM(PST), 6 Days a week AND the client will give us the timing of the second shift.
GENERAL OUTLINE OF THE AGREEMENT:
Hours of work are 9 hours a day (from Monday until Saturday), annually with at least one person available 24 hours including Bank and Festive Holidays for enquires and information.
Technical specifications:
1. The Inbound dialer needs to support inbound call facility.
2. The center predictive dialer must be able to receive 4-5 calls per hour.
3. The dialer needs to be able to upload the Customer data.
4. The down time should not be more than 5 minutes. If the down time is more than 5 minutes the client has the right to stop the process without giving any notice.
All the voice logs MUST be uploaded on the FTP server (provided by the client) within 24 hours. The file format for voice recordings must be in MP3 NOT VOX. File should be labelled: Date_First Name_ Last Name
Reports:
Process Manager is responsible for daily reports and weekly progress reports. Daily reports must be delivered at the end of the shift.
Reports sent daily:
1. Login hours of the agents, Team Leaders, Trainers and Process Manager: login/logout, hour, date for every agent, Team Leaders, Trainer and Process Manager.
2. Service Level Report: percentage of calls answered from the total number of incoming calls, average talking time, average handle time, average waiting time.
3. Daily access to the: silent monitoring, barging and real-time screening. This will give the possibility to access on-line all parameters regarding agents login report, agents available, waiting time, customers waiting, service level.
Reports sent weekly:
1. ASA report: The number of calls answered out of total calls, the number of calls dropped, the maximum wait time, the average wait time, the average talk duration, the average clerical duration, the % of calls dropped
2. Activity report: this report will present the activity regarding different parameters displayed in the below:
1. No. of calls received
2. No. of calls answered
3. Average waiting time (sec)
4. Average talk time (sec)
5. No of calls answered < 10 sec
6. No of calls answered < 30 sec
7. No of calls answered < 60 sec
8. No of calls answered < 90 sec
9. No of calls answered >= 90 sec
10. No of calls answered < 2 min
11. No of calls abandoned < 10 sec
12. No of calls abandoned < 30 sec
13. No of calls abandoned < 60 sec
14. No of calls abandoned < 90 sec
15. No of calls abandoned >= 90 sec
CALL-HANDLING REQUIREMENTS SERVICE LEVELS:
As long as “First Party” dictates the number of agents to be on duty handling
Incoming customer calls, “Second Party” will assume responsibility for managing
Service Levels. The agree upon target is 90 %of all calls will be answered by call centre
Within twenty (20) seconds. Out of 25-30 calls every Hour the call centre has to maintain at least 5% of conversion ratio.
CALL LENGTH:
The parties mutually anticipate an Average Actual Handling Time ("AAHT") of ten minutes Per Call. ABANDON RATE:
Call centre agrees that the abandon rate shall not exceed 2% Of total Inbound Calls,
measured daily.
1,) SA INBOUND 20 PLUS SEATS – 1 SHIFT CAMPAIGN - CAN DIAL EITHER IN USA OR IN UK OR ON BOTH COUNTRIES
KEY POINTS:
• Startup Capacity: Seats 20 seats, Two months call center will dial on outbound and
third month call center will dial on inbound process
• Expandable: After 11 Months or as per performance.
• Payment Cycle: Wired after every 15 Days as per SLA,
• Advance Payment: None – will consider after dialing on inbound for 3 months.
• Payment Holdback: Nil.
• Payment Mode: Wire Transfer and Pay pal
• Payment Terms: On Login Hour Basis on Portal.
• Payout: $64/Sale on outbound and 10/hour on inbound.
• Center Payment: Center will be paid Only for Operational Hours.
• Agent Per shift: 8 hr working shift.
• Wire Charges: To be deducted from billing.
• Type of campaign: Pure Inbound process after two months of dialing on outbound.
• Sales Target: 10 quality sales for every 1- agents on out bound.
• Operational Hours: USA Or UK Shift timings.
• Incentives: 3 laptops if the target is met with quality and $1,500 bonus.
CONSULTATION CHARGES: $10,000 for both U.K and USA or CANADA shift and one time enrollment and processing fee of $1,000. If a call center chooses to dial only in one country than consultation charges will be $5,000 along with processing fee of $1,000.
NOTATION: Campaign will be outbound for the first two months paying $64/hr along with a target and it will turn into inbound the second month paying $10/hr for every productive seat allotted on the inbound process.
REQUIREMENTS:
• Dialer needs to support Inbound Calls facility. (Predictive Hard Dialer Mandatory)
• Center Registered under DOT and STPI, ISO registration will be preferred.
• Male Female Ratio has to be has to be good minimum 8:2 with background in I.T and technical
support and call center experience is a must with good accent and communication skills.
• Prior Call center experienced (Outbound/Inbound) agents to dial only.
• All call needs to be recorded and stored in Dialer or ftp for minimum 6 Months.
• Agent Login Reports and Portal Reports to be generated on a daily basis.
• Live Date between.
STEPS TO GO LIVE:
1. Company Profile Selection.
2. NDA & SLA Sign UP.
3. Agents Online Screening.
4. Online Training.
5. Technical Set Up Testing.
6. Final Mock & Test Calling
7. GO LIVE
2.) SA INBOUND 20 PLUS SEATS – 1 SHIFT AUSTRALIAN CAMPAIGN
KEY POINTS:
• Startup Capacity: Seats 20 seats, Two months call center will dial on outbound and
third month call center will dial on inbound process
• Expandable: After 11 Months or as per performance.
• Payment Cycle: Wired after every 15 Days as per SLA,
• Advance Payment: None – will consider after dialing on inbound for 3 months.
• Payment Holdback: Nil.
• Payment Mode: Wire Transfer and Pay pal
• Payment Terms: On Login Hour Basis on Portal.
• Payout: $100/Sale on outbound and $8/hour on inbound.
• Center Payment: Center will be paid Only for Operational Hours.
• Agent Per shift: 8 hr working shift.
• Wire Charges: To be deducted from billing.
• Type of campaign: Pure Inbound process after two months of dialing on outbound.
• Sales Target: 7 quality sales for every 1- agents on out bound.
• Operational Hours: AUSTRALIAN Shift timings.
CONSULTATION CHARGES: U.S. $3.000 and one time enrollment and processing fee of $1,000.
NOTATION: Campaign will be outbound for the first two months paying $100/Sale along with a target and it will turn into inbound the third month paying $8/hr for every productive seat allotted on the inbound process.
REQUIREMENTS:
• Dialer needs to support Inbound Calls facility. (Predictive Hard Dialer Mandatory)
• Center Registered under DOT and STPI, ISO registration will be preferred.
• Male Female Ratio has to be has to be good minimum 8:2 with background in I.T and technical
support and call center experience is a must with good accent and communication skills.
• Prior Call center experienced (Outbound/Inbound) agents to dial only.
• All call needs to be recorded and stored in Dialer or ftp for minimum 6 Months.
• Agent Login Reports and Portal Reports to be generated on a daily basis.
• Live Date between.
STEPS TO GO LIVE:1. Company Profile Selection.2. NDA & SLA Sign UP.3. Agents Online Screening.
4. Online Training.5. Technical Set Up Testing.6. Final Mock & Test Calling7. GO LIVE
AUSTRALIAN INBOUND
INBOUND TECHNICAL
Customer Base: Australia
Seats required: 20 (FTE) 10 Technical 10 Non Technical +3 (Project heads)
Time Zone: AUS
Project Operations: 365 Days 24/7
Payment Channels: Bank Transfer
Payment Frequency: Every 15 / 30 Days
Training & Support: Migration Training / ONSITE “Hands ON” Training
Payout: AUS 10 per/ Hour
Client Advance Pre-payment: Approx. Aus $ 50000
Client Advance Will Be Wired To The Center On The Day Of Technical Testing And Training ON - SITE. To Handle Incoming Calls From Existing Customers Experiencing Computer Related Problems.
In Order To Provide Basic or Technical Assistance
Online Assistance for Billing
Transfer And Escalate Calls If Irrelevant To The Queue.
Required Documents:
DOT
ROC
STPI
Last year Balance sheet
Service Tax Number
Consultation charges: Rs. 90,000 enrollment and processing fee, 10 lacks upfront, and than 15 lacks from billing, 18% royalty every month.
U.S. INBOUND SALES CAMPAIGN
Please find the US inbound campaign details below:
Campaign: US Inbound Sales Campaign. Center have to provide sales support to USA customers who are interested to purchase from our online retail. Center has to provide knowledge support to our customers. Center has to support for our new and existing customers.
Vertical: Retail Customer Base: USA from all 51 states.
Client will provide Toll Free number.
Payout: $8-12 per hour per seat and based on ACHT & FCR.
No. of Seats: 15
Advance Payment: One Month Full Advance Payment.
ACHT: 180-240 seconds. FCR: Client will reveal at the time of training.
Reporting: Center has to provide real time reports which is generated from your Dialer. Dialer: Any dialer which supports inbound calls.
Working Days & Hours: Monday to Saturday and 10 hours shift & 5 hours on Saturdays. Log in & Log out: 0800-1800 HRS PST. Saturdays 0900-1400 HRS PST.
Training: 8 days of LIVE training and 5 hours a day. Training will be provided from client side.
Technology: Internet line with at least 4mbps on Leased Line or IPLC/MPLS. Center must have hardware based Firewall in place. Client will provide IVR & CRM and center must provide two server at least with latest configuration. Servers for storing call recordings and another for IVR & Application storage. Any call center compatible headsets. Customer complaint should not rise more than 3%. All customers call must picked within 10 seconds from your agents.
Client force 100% SLA activation after 30 days of briefing.
Well the client is based in Delaware state of USA and into online retail and have customer base in USA, Canada and entering into Mexico and Brazil market in this year. Client annual turnover is $1.2 billion and into Electronics, Apparels and Fashion accessories. We have warehouse in North Carolina, Arizona and Michigan. Client closely works with Walmart and have plan to list their stock in NYSE in 2013.
Procedure for sign up:
1. Send Company profile
2. MOU sign up with us
3. Client Rep & One person from our company visits your premises.
4. Audit report created by the client rep.
5. Within 10 days Video Conferencing with the client
6. As soon as the Video conference is done, from then within 48-72 hours you will sign the SLA. (If you need time for recruitment can ask for that)
7. Training - Trainer from the client end would be here.
8. After the Training, One day test call session with LIVE customers
9. Advance release.
Commercials: Rs. 90,000 from enrollment and processing fee, 5 lacks upfront cost
2. Traveling and accommodation expenses of the client rep and us would be taken care by the center.
3. 50% From the advance in split payments.
4. 10% Royalty
2nd Project
Campaign: Australia Customer Chat Support.
Description: Center has to provide customer support for Aussies leading online retail shop. Center has to provide knowledge support to customers.
Payout: $4 per hour per system
Seats: 20 seats
Working Hours: 0500-1400 HRS IST
Working days: Monday to Saturday.
Payment Cycle & Mode: Fortnight and Bank Wire.
Client pay Fortnight advance payment before going live
Training: Will be for 6 days and 5 hours a day via Skype.
Urgent close up.
Total seats: 60
Procedure for sign up:
Send Company profile
MOU sign up with us
Client Rep & One person from our company visits your premises.
Audit report created by the client rep.
Within 3 working days SLA Sign up
As soon as the SLA is sign, from then within 48-72 hours you can start the training. (If you need time for recruitment can ask for that)
After the Training, One day test chat session with LIVE customers
Advance release.
Commercials:
1LK on MOU & 1LK on SLA
Traveling and accommodation expenses of the client rep and us would be taken care by the center.
40% From the advance
10% Royalty
emrollment and processing fee: Rs.90,000
1. 5Lac upfront cost
2. Traveling and accommodation expenses of the client rep and us would be taken care by the center.
3. 50% From the advance
4. 10% Royalty
INBOUND TELEMARKETING SERVICES
PROGRAM DESCRIPTION:
KEYPCDOCTOR will be offering Online technical Support services requiring a highly qualified service bureau to accept inbound calls from Customers, answer Product-related questions and complete KEYPCDOCTOR online technical Support.
CALL OBJECTIVE:
To service Customers using the KEYPCDOCTOR’s Toll-free Number for Customer and to complete Online Technical Support transaction.
The calls will be first handled by a VRU that will provide a brief explanation of the service and collect various pieces of information, including credit card information.
The calls will then be transferred to CSR where the transaction will be completed.
payout : 4$ per hour.
payout time : monthly
No adv payout.
Security : BG will be given by the client
BG should also be given by center to get the project
As a first step company profile and LOI needed.
Consultation charges:
Rs. 90,000 enrollment and processing fee.
One time 3 lacks upfront cost.
Inbound dell campaign
Type of Process: Inbound , customer care , query handling
Work Description: Query Handling, Customer Care
Industry Vertical: Dell on call guidance, Customer Care and troubleshooting
Seats: 15 seats - 300 seats
Working days 30 days ( 24* 7 but - for first month only 8 * 7)
Payout: $ 10 per hour / agent
Monthly Billing: $ 240 * 30 days = $ 7200
On Per Agent / 24*7
Monthly billing $ 3600 * 30 days = $ 108000 On 24 * 7 Shift
ON 15 Agents 24*7
Location: Countrywide. Signup: With direct client can be done in
Vendors Place , London or Online
No of Centers: 15 centers required
Contract: 1 year extendable to 3 years
Training: Shall be provided by the client
Payment Cycle: Bi-Weekly in advance ( post-dated 15 days cheque in
advance ).
Consultancy: Rs.90,000 from advance billing
Upfront cost: Rs. 5 lacks
30% from Adavance billing in split payments
1. SEATS REQUIRED: MINIMUM 15
2. SHIFT TIME: 8 HOURS MINIMUM WORKING
3. CONTRACT: 1 YEAR MINIMUM
4. QUALITY MATRIX: 90% C-SAT
5. SOFTWARE: PROVIDED BY US
6. TRAINING: 7 DAY TRAINING
8. TESTING CALL FLOW: 1 DAYS TESTING
9. SUPPORT: COMPLETE SUPPORT CALL, EMAIL AND CHAT
10. PAYMENT TERMS: Bi - WEEKLY;
11. PAYMENT PER AGENT: $ 7200 PER AGENT / PER MONTH
12. WORKING DAYS: 7 WORKING DAYS (MON- SUN)
14. CALL FLOW: 1500 CALLS PER DAY (MCV)
15.Royalty:12%
Data Dispatch/ Reports
1. All Call flow and rest calls would require to be dispatched by the EOD –
without fail.
2. All reports as per norms to be sent out on daily, weekly and monthly basis.
3. Follow up reports to be entertained immediately on first priority basis.
4. Conclusion reports to be managed on daily basis along with requisite feedback
from stage 3 & stage 4.
5. Other reports to be followed as per norms.
The Center should have minimum 15 seats. Level 1 = 11 seats.,
Level 2 = 2 seats
Level 3 & Level 4 = 2
We require 50 Centers for this urgently; this would be done at 'TOP PRIORITY'.
Contract for 1 year.
Cumulative payout monthly for the 'Project' is $ 108000 . Hence per seat payout for the Center is $ 7200 per month.
ALL WE REQUIRE ARE COMMITTED CENTERS WITH WILLINGNESS TO WORK HARD, HONESTLY AND DEDICATEDLY.
Documents required:
1. Company Profile
2. Articles and Memorandum of Association
3. Director's profile along with senior Management profile (Heads of
Technology, HR, Operations, Quality)
4. Details of past and current experience in inbound, outbound (Domestic or International)
UK Banking Inbound Process
Minimum 50 Seats and max 200 Seats for one slot.
Project details as follows.
Centers can take minimum 50 and maximum 200
£ 16 /hr/agent
8hr login time/shift
1 team head for 25 agents
£ 1000/pm fixed pay for each team leader. Quality analyzer
2 persons for 50seats
Project manager -1
£ 1600/pm fixed pay
The other staff payments will not be taken care.
Monthly electricity, iplc bill, internet bill, cab expenses, cafeteria expenses will be covered by client. You have to produce proper invoice for it.
All the above payments will be given to you and you may fix any salary for your staffs.
You have to arrange accommodation for one quality analyzer from client office who will stay with you for 3 months. The bill will be paid by client; you just need to set his accommodation as he is new to country.
If the center has all the above qualities with good infrastructure, technical, and agents means they are eligible for this process
Advance amount of one month billing will be provided on the day of going alive.
Payments and Sign Up details:
Consultancy Charges: enrollment and processing fee: Rs. 90,000, and one time upfront cost of Rs. 15 lacks.
Please find the Bank Process Details. The charges the Contact Center with 3.72% of the annual payment needs to be paid as in charges to me once u receive the advance payment.
Royalty: - 12%
One month advance payout is there.
Centers are already running in Buckingham and Philippines.
Sign up will be with direct end client.
If you are ok for the terms please mail me your company documents.
PPT of your company profile, DOT license, Registration Certificate, STPI (optional), NASCOM (optional)
CENTER PICTURES and NETWORKING CHART
Briefing the center experience what they are in to and what all the process they runt.
(Imp point doesn’t give wrong information’s. Let us know genuinely what a experience you have if fresher also ok)